[Below is a transcript of Ragu's rich interview with Hang Mai and Chau, which occurred under the banyan tree during Gandhi 3.0 Retreat this January.]



Ragu: So I was thinking that it's much easier to interview somebody if you don't know anything about them. Hang Mai, Chau, and my family were a mutually captive audience for each other for the last 10 days in our farm. They were graceful enough to come and guide about 20 farmers in my neighborhood to understand farming and life through their eyes. So since I have a lot of data, I thought I'll do something interesting. In general, there is an archetype that we are all taught -- from so many different sources -- when we grow up, and the archetype has certain characteristics. So we are taught by different people that the world is a tough place -- that you learn very early in life the world is supposed to be a tough place and you're supposed to study hard, are supposed to acquire a lot of knowledge; you're supposed to "hit the ground running" and "grab the opportunity," "seize the moment," "make your fortune" -- and live happily ever after.

This is an archetype, right? And it's so invisible that it just gets into your system and you're looking at the world like that. But what if there's another archetype, right? What if, instead of thinking the world is a tough place, there's thinking the world is not only a friendly place but a place that nourishes. What if, instead of studying hard and acquiring knowledge and all that, you observe and learn gently -- and cultivate instead of "hitting the ground running"? What if you could make and bow to the ground instead of "grabbing the opportunity"? What if you could plant and grow it slowly over a period? What if instead of "seizing the moment" you surrender to it? What if instead of "making your fortune" you just realize the world is full of so many forms of wealth waiting for you? Instead of living happily ever after, what if we could just live happily right now? [audience signifying agreement]

What if this was an archetype? And the reason I became a fan-boy for this couple [others laughing] is because on one hand I realized that we are sort of the same age but because of different countries, different opportunities and stuff, I have been to so many places. There's a lot of numbers that I can add in terms of how many books I have read, how many people I have met, many, many different things. So in a normal world I would look at them and say, "okay, that's okay," and just move on. But when I look at them -- that they are living this list, which revealed to me in the last 10 days I was with them -- that's when every single thing about them, I was able to see them in a different light. So I would like to start some questions. Every time somebody would ask a question to Chau about farming or about anything, he would say, "Go to the forest." [Laughter] So why do you think going to the forest is going to do something to people? What answers is it supposed to provide?

Chau: Yeah, I think it's kind of long story. It's very much linked to my previous work in the past. It's about more than 20 years. I had to work with the NGO in Vietnam with the indigenous people who lived in mountainous areas. Now I realize that I had a great opportunity just to meet many different, very wise indigenous people and stay in the really beautiful forest there. And it's not just a little learn from all very wise indigenous people -- the way how they live in the forest, but also to observe forest there. And everyday, you know, you'll never see the same thing in the forest, you know, you always find new things there. Of course, during that time I did not realize about this, but much later.

So when we have time and start to do some farming, and we see that, oh the way -- actually, the way people were originally doing farming is from the natural patterns and one of the natural patterns is forest patterns. That's the way it works in nature. For a long time, people know it, but now go away from it. They just want to pick up a certain things from the forest -- they like it or they need it and they design it like nowadays, for example. It's not like the whole structure of that.

And, yes, when I realize that, I see, "Okay, if you have any problems, you know, even from the food, from the air, from the water or even with mental problems, if you go to the forest, the forest will solve every problem." Don't worry about insects or anything else, you know. It's just really something you can find out the solution and feel happy there. It's at least for me like that. So for me, any question regarding farming -- even to find out the way of life, even if you get any problems -- you don't need to ask any professor or anything else. Just go there by yourself. You will become a teacher of yourself. You are just like your guiding and actually the forest becomes like -- everything there it can become teacher, become your mother, become your mentor. Whatever. So everything is there. Yeah. I don't know how it comes to me like that, but thanks to the 20 years, you know, working with the farmers there and stay surrounding by forest, I really learned about that.



Ragu: Yeah. So I'm going to ask seemingly different questions to both of them, but since I know little bit of their journey, you will see them coming together as it evolves. The question to Hang Mai is, at some point she decided that she wants to become a judge. So what was the inspiration?

Hang Mai: I think I was nurtured by a lot of fairy tales by my Mom, so the thing for the kids is that the good man always wins. You know, you like that kind of thing, and happy endings. And when I grow up I think it's was a little bit, you know ... my mind was also "corrupted" something by Hollywood movies. Yeah. In those movies, good man always wins also. So for me, American movies are very entertaining. It's like a fairy tale for adults. So we have that belief. So when I was 12, I want to be a judge, you know, because that's like the childhood dream. Yeah. When I interview people also, I always ask, what was your childhood dream? And many people cry because I bet they, I guess they realize that they are too far from their childhood dream. So, I followed my childhood dreams. I pursued justice and I think justice, in some ways, it shown in the courtroom. Yeah. So that's why I went to law school.

Ragu: So just to continue on that, you had shared at one point with me that there was a moment when it was really clear to you that justice is not going to be understood or served in a courtroom. What led you to that?

Hang Mai: I was graduating from law school and I find for a job, and I want to work in that system, for government. And I was required to pay a bribe equal to my two years' salary for, like an entry ticket. Yeah. It's not for the judge position. It takes you several years to reach that position, but first, for the entry ticket you had to pay. Then I feel it's not the right thing, you know?

I searched for a job somewhere else, and I found a job in Decathlon, a French company, as a legal assistant. And in Decathlon, I stayed there for 10 years. I was happy there. I can speak French -- let's say I liked that language -- and I learned a lot. I learned how a corporate functions and how things move, the supply chains. You know, international supply chains and how that works. During that 10 years, I was involved in different positions, including the CSR manager for Southeast Asia and South Africa. It means that I spent my time in factories to make sure the working condition for workers are good.

But, thanks to Decathlon Foundation that I have time to visit, that i have time to be involved in many projects, philanthropy projects in Vietnam, in rural areas. And that I started a lot of questions -- why we are number one in exporting many things, but farmers are very poor. So, then I see that justice is not there, yeah? When I was in the factories, I can ensure the human rights at work, but it's still very narrow. So when I see in the rural areas and I see the justice is not there. So I want to understand. That's why I quit Decathlon after 10 years and I start my own business in agriculture -- to work with them, because my motto is always "if you want to do something, you must be one of them."

You know, if you are not in that, you have no way to change. So I jump in that supply chains and I work with them. I learned in working with farmers, and by chance, a friend of mine sent to me the book, "The One Straw Revolution," the soft copy in English. And I read that book and I realized that, "Oh, I'm doing everything wrong. It's not the right way to do." Then I have the intention to translate that book into Vietnamese first for the farmers that we are working with. But the more I read that book, I think it deserves a bigger number of readers. So we decided to contact the author to buy the copyrights and published the book. And so far the soft copy -- no, the hard copy -- has been sold about 30,000 copies, and we also published free book -- uh, giftivism. :) And that book creates a movement let say or trends. There's always the immigration flow -- the mainstream is from the rural area to the city. And that book was a source of inspiration for many people and many of them want to come back to the countryside. Yeah. So, that's how ... the way I met Chau.

Ragu: We'll get to that. [Audience Laughing] So, one of the things Chau was doing throughout the course we had in the farm was the question of ownership -- really troublesome -- you know, even physically it becomes uncomfortable. And that is connected to the particular job he was doing with the NGO in Vietnam, so where it's a strange situation, but in Vietnam, anybody could go and buy any piece of land anywhere in the country. There's no restriction. And because of that, the indigenous people are losing their lands. And so the government wanted the NGO to go and talk to the indigenous people and help them acquire the titles for the land. But these people have no concept of ownership. They're like, "we're not interested." So he was in a very difficult position in that. So that job that you did -- and until that point, before that job, he was like a city person, right? He went to college and all that. How did your understanding of ownership change?

Chau: Yeah, you know, when we tried to work with indigenous people, it's because we tried to ensure that indigenous people have a land title, and it's on different stages. So first we tried to facilitate process of land allocation and then to ensure that individual households or families can get a land title. In Vietnam, we don't have the concept of ownership, we all have a concept of "you have a right to use" that kind of land. So we tried to do that, but after some years we did that, it was like a kind of model experiment first. And then we realized that actually, the way we tried to promote with the individual land titles, it even made the land-lost lost quicker, faster -- because it's like you legalize the procedures, so that just makes easy for the people can transfer land right use.

It doesn't matter if they're willing to do it or they were forced to do it. And then, we had to stop that activity and change into another strategy. Of course we also learned that most people, indigenous people, they have kind of communal land. So they manage all together. So we tried to lobby to the government, so to get a kind of legalize the communal title, land title, land-enforced title -- and lucky that we were succeed on that. And then we try to facilitate that process so that the community can get communal land titles. Just to ensure that. According to the law, the communal land you cannot transfer. So that just to make sure that the community has that land title, so for the long term they have land and forest and no one can just take it away from them.

For some reason, I asked that question about ownership. I questioned myself first. So I look at myself: "Okay now I have 20 years' experience working with indigenous people and actually I learned a lot from them. Is it really my knowledge? Can I own that knowledge?" And then I say "no, it's not my knowledge. I'm just like the people who receive knowledge from many very good indigenous people.

I feel like a lucky person, that I can meet them, and they can share with me with unconditionaliy. They just gave me, and I receive it and I receive it. So I'm just like a little store. And then I said, "I cannot own all of this knowledge," and I think about the river. It's just like a river flows. If I try to keep it in my mind for long, and then one day it's just like polluted. The flow should be flowed, and then you can have fresh mind. And that's why I said, "Oh, I don't have the right to use it, to own it." And of course, then I questioned how "in nature there is no copyright."

Hang Mai: There's copy, but no right. [Laughter]

Chau: So I think, "no." Yeah. I think it's really something wrong in this world, because they recognize copyrights.

Hang Mai: Yeah. That's also the subject that we brought up, we discussed it a lot.

Ragu: So how did you guys meet?

Hang Mai: Thanks to Fukuoka. :) [Laughter] Because the moment that I see the group readers -- the readers reached 10,000 people on Facebook -- and obviously many young people want to go back to rural areas, but they don't know How. Mainly, Fukuoka just say about Why -- the question "why farming", the position of the person and why they should do farming? But it is not very clear How. Then when I read Bill Mollison, I see, "Okay. Permaculture could be a good thing -- good tools for people who are looking for How." Then I just posted: I'm looking for an expert in permaculture, and then people introduced some, including Chau, so I fly to Hanoi and met them. Then I invited Chau to join the group. Then after two farm visits and interacting with people, he finds this group interesting because they seeked the way. And finally he says that "I want to join this current." And I asked him, "how much do you charge every time you come to train us?" He said, "you cannot pay. I don't take money." Then, I think, "Oh, that's good even, because we don't have money." [Laughter] Yeah.

So every time I invite him, I tell people, "You pay what you can." So most of them can't because they are just fresh graduates or they have no money, and I have to compensate for that, you know, so that was good. And finally I tell him, "why don't you come to live in the South? Like that, we can save a lot of flights." [Laughter] So that's how I lifted him out of the jungles and put him in the farm. [Laughter]

No, I'm kidding. I asked him, "Do you want to be a preacher for your whole life or do you want to be a practitioner?" So that was a good question, because I want to be a practitioner of the Fukuoka philosophy. And that's how things went.



Ragu: So they have this beautiful five-acre farm and I've seen so many amazing pictures of it and the way they have designed it in sync with all the understanding he has from the indigenous people. And he actually learned permaculture directly from Bill Mollison in Australia. And one of the biggest permaculture teachers today, Geoff Lawton -- when he used to come to Vietnam, he would work with Chau to teach. And one of his first comments was, I remember him telling me that, you guys are really doing everything we are teaching. [Chau Laughs] So, the way they have designed -- how they've gone about designing it and how the design is evolving -- all of that is just amazing, which anybody interested in farming should talk to them, and what else?

Audience: What is your engagement and dynamic with indigenous populations and practices? Are you bringing your permaculture design -- do you see more of the exchange of you bringing what you know related to the indigenous population, or are you mainly learning from indigenous practices about farming? How does that exchange go?

Chau: I think one of the most important things what I learned -- of course, now I realize it more clear -- it's about the way how indigenous people, they position themselves in the ecosystem. So I see now very clear that they see themselves as a part of whole ecosystem. They are not on top of their areas, yeah? So we, when we see -- like they see themselves -- now I see that -- as a part, and the way we live and we try to stay and live is like we try to adapt in that environment, or ecosystem. You don't design for you, but you adapt to that existing there. So that is very important point from this. So even with permaculture later, I see people are still thinking a lot about designing for the people ...

Hang Mai: For human's interests.

Chau: For human's interests. But for me, like we come and stay in our farms now, our strategy now -- actually the way we live now -- it's more adapt to what are already there in our farm. So that is one of the very most importance that I learned from indigenous people. Because it changes a lot. And actually a lot of questions from us so far just disappeared, because when you think in the way: "how can we design for our life" there are a lot of questions.

Hang Mai: Our own needs.

Chau: But when we decided to move into "how can we adapt into this situation?" -- and then those questions about what we need just disappeared. There are no more questions about this. For example, now I don't have much questions about the ownership because, you know, that is not in my mind anymore. So it's a lot easy moving in that direction, so this is also one of the important things I learned from indigenous people.

And what I see is, permaculture gives us a lot of guide lines in term of technical solutions. And then now we learn more -- with Fukuoka, who gives us with the vision, the way how we should go, you know? We tried to combine... for me, I tried to combine many things, you know, from indigenous people, some with Fukuoka, and Bill Mollison. So this helped us moving. I means now is we feel like... Yesterday we discussed about we also cannot say we are the farmers because when we call ourselves a farmer, like we see doing farming as our job.

Hang Mai: As a profession.

Chau: But we don't see it as a job. It's not our job, actually. We just do it.

Hang Mai: Yeah, because if we talk about farmers as a job just to earn your living, but in fact we don't earn our living. We are living now in a farm.

Chau: Yes. [Laughter] I agree. We do a lot of things there. It's really like that, you know, and we try to just adapt into our garden daily, you know. So we only can describe, you know, the way how we live in our garden, and even we cannot name what we are now -- it's like we are farmers or, yeah.... What else?

Hang Mai: And, personally, farming now is the answer for my pursuit of justice. Like, when you see the whole, as we've discussed with Ragu, that when we start to do something, they always ask about the set of questions -- why, what, where, when and how, who -- something like that. But I say, I think we have another more important "w," which is "whole." When you see the whole, the justice that I see now is that we take enough and we return whenever we can. The return meaning the physical stuff, and also invisible things, love and care. So, take enough and return whenever we can, because sometimes, as we've discussed that we talk about giving, but even that, many things don't belong to us. So how can we give? We just take and then we return whenever we can. Thank you.


[Hang Mai and Chau's home, built with friends out of recycled materials.]

Ragu: So just two interesting tidbits about them. They live on $2 a day. That's their monthly expenditures, $60 a month. So you can ask them how they do that. [Laughter] The second interesting fact I learned is that, just near their farm, there's a large institution for mentally challenged people, and many times they can hear screams from that place whenever new patients come in there. And then, when they shared this, one person from our group asked, "Oh, you know, wouldn't it be a neat idea if some of those patients, you know, if they find their way to your farm because it perhaps might be more healing?" And their response was, "Oh, they don't do that. But when they find that there are patients that they cannot deal with, they just send them over to our place." [Laughter]

Chau: Because already there are two there. [Laughter]

Ragu: On that note, a minute of silence.